I don’t let myself feel in competition with anyone on RevTK, but I *do* look at their amazing feats as proof the system works, and I have my own proofs. That’s good enough for me. And I think most people just want to encourage others, I guess they just go overboard sometimes.

Heisig did not just invent the idea of “stories”, he thought them all out after learning the kanji himself, and put chose the best keywords and put them in the best order so other people’s learning would be made much easier. In my opinion, he has done for learners of Japanese what no one else has.

As for just finding reading material, it completely and totally stinks when you constantly have to look things up in the dictionary and it takes a few hours to translate a couple of sentences.

Also, writitng a lot (I did a lot of writing at the beginning) doesn’t help you learn, either. *Katherine hit the nail on the head.* (Heisig said it first.) Japanese is a totally different animal, because the kanji is not like a roman alphabet. You *need* some way to reliably remember them or you are *never* going to be able to read and learn.

And so, the reason people are encouraging this person to stick with Heisig’s RTK and RevTK (which removes the drudgery of card-management) is because it is the *first* method to address the ability of non-native speakers to learn kanji. It works, plain and simple.

Yes, Heisig *does* say to use flashcards, and specifically endorses the Leitner system in his book. Simply reading from the book could not be sufficient — how would you quiz yourself in a random order without them?

I am not saying don’t read or write before you use kanji (that would probably not effective, and you would lose motivation), but once you’ve learned enough basic Japanese to know you really want to learn to read and write, then you should adopt this system if you are not native Japanese/Chinese/Korean.

Quite contrary to what someone called this, rote memorization or mechanical memorization, this helps to make each kanji truly memorable. It also focuses on the fact that if you truly can write a kanji correctly just from a keyword, then you can tell two similar kanji apart. Otherwise, people think they recognize a kanji, but really, they don’t, it just looks familiar, and if given two similar kanji, they will not know which is which.

You are not just memorizing, you are able to asses new kanji. I was learning some vocab the other day, and I noticed that I had started to automatically pick apart any new kanji with Heisig keywords and understand why they are written the way they are. An hour later, I recalled a kanji that was brand-new and did not make any effort to study, stroke-for-stroke, correctly. I just discoverd that I am now “thinking in kanji”, similar to how a native Japanese must do!

I did a lot of writing and did not remember any of it before except the few kanji I used all the time. Now I am recalling kanji that I only use now and then. This is amazing!

However, the equally important ingredient is, as AJATT endorses, *immersion* (or the closest practical facimile), which is hard for many people outside Japan to do.

It’s funny, because a lot of people equally misunderstand Khalid, thinking he’s just totally dissing textbooks and so forth. What I get out of what he writes is that he understands the importance of high amounts of input compared to output. That is a major thing in order to listen, read, and even speak.

In any case, no one should have been telling that person that they should feel bad if they skipped their Heisig. It is not a contest! (I already replied to this person, if it’s who I think, that they should not worry if they miss some time now and then. Merely having a target and aiming for it, even if you miss it, gets you closer to your eventual goal, and that’s all that matters!)

Most likely something in their entire approach is out of balance, much as mine has been. They need *INPUT* (podcasts, conversations, etc.). Movies and such do not work for me, I find no benefit or motivation from “recognizing the occasional word”, and I don’t see that improving. Speaking with a real person, you can ask them to slow down or repeat what they said.

I also like the podcasts for the same reason. Plus, like that person who was looking for help on the forums, I simply *do not* have the luxury of hours to myself everyday — if it’s who I think, they are also a working student. Meeting people for conversation a couple times a week (on its own) just doesn’t cut it.

After saving up money for 6 months for an iPod, I realized I still need a way to listen when I’m not busy. I just today got a dock/alarm that lets me “sleep” to the iPod — a great way to listen to lessons when I’m awake and not doing anything, winding down before falling asleep.

That said, I think it’s important to read and write, I just think it’s not going to help you much without a lot of input and *also* an effective way to learn kanji. It’s going to be a lot of work for nothing. However, reading and writing should take up less of your study time in the beginning than you think in the beginning. (I mistakenly did the opposite.)

To sum up, there are two very big things that will help you if you find your Japanese learning is not effective.

1) Increase your proportion of input. You may not have the money to spend on many movies, or an interest in manga, or an iPod, but you can get your input in some way. Even with podcasts, you can just install iTunes and listen to them on your computer. Whatever time/money/regional availability issues you have, someone else has probably already figured out the answer.

Learn to ignore the insensitivity of people who say things like, “It’s all about priorities, if you really wanted to learn, you would.” Just make sure you get a lot of input somehow, some way!

Someone I know just borrows CDs from the library instead of buying them, unless they really fall in love with them, but I know I wouldn’t have time to listen to more than a lesson or two before I have to return it. That’s why I find the iPod (together with dock/alarm) an effective investment — I can listen when I’m falling asleep and know it will shut off by itself. (I tried an FM transmitter in my car, but there are no unused frequencies on the radio around here, so I returned it.)

2) Use Heisig’s “Remembering the Kanji” to learn kanji. Ideally, use “Anki” (software) or “Reviewing the Kanji” (web application) so you don’t need to create boxes and sort cards physically. If you try to learn *ALL* the kanji completely before you learn to read and write at all, though, I can’t imagine *not* getting burnt out, whether the stories are fun or not. You’ll soon wonder what you’re doing all this for.

Pick up a grammar book and dictionary and learn to write, too. But I think you can go slow with writing and keep it basic while you learn your kanji and get lots of input.

I also think the “light at the end of the tunnel” shines when you figure out what has been missing from your learning approach and methods so far. Heisig addresses one of the most common problems to Japanese learners, but remembering the kanji is certainly not the only problem — just one of the biggest.

Now this gets off-topic from here. But maybe these examples will help other people who do not find themselves with mountains of disposable time (or income, for that matter).

Some things I do:

1) I don’t do emails with people in Japanese right now. They require translation and are not neccesarily short, and by the time I can get to it, it’s probably out of date.

2) I stopped trying to do *everything* in Japanese a while ago. I realized I could not read what I wrote a week later, and would have to spend hours translating myself!

3) I am focusing on ways to use the Japanese I *do* know *appropriately*. While jotting down some ideas on my study plans the other day, I realized that my list had a lot of words for which I *do* know the kanji/vocab. I threw away my English notes and started again in Japanese. This I can easily read later, even some of the newer kanji (with furigana), and will not have to translate all over again just to read it.

4) I can do the same thing with notes for school, course titles on my notebooks, etc. There is no need to write numbers in English, I can list things with Japanese numbers. I can write the course title in Kanji with furigana on my notebooks, as it is short, and looking at it every day, I will quickly learn it. The same applies to dates and certain every day terms, like “chapter”, “lesson”, “vocabulary” and so forth. I can use these terms in all my notes and writing.

5) Forget about watching movies and so forth until I can understand audio lessons a lot better. Then maybe I can watch movies and understand an entire sentence now and then. Right now, movie dialog just totally goes over my head, so it’s not even useful, not even after repetitive viewings.

6) Rename certain browser bookmark folders with Japanese names (where I know the words well, and won’t be unable to use my bookmarks).

7) Anything I know well or decently in Japanese, I should do in “All Japanese, All the Time” (unless someone else needs to read it, of course).

Don’t replace everything in my life with Japanese that I can’t handle, but replace everything that’s easy, and gradually add a few things.

9) Now that I learned about “Anki” through the RevTK forums, make *audio* for ALL my Anki flashcards. I don’t need to make kanji flashcards because the RevTK website does that for me, but I use Anki for vocab and sentences. I am already focusing my vocab flashcards to coordinate with the RTK kanji I’ve done and some other kanji I already know, instead of kanji I don’t know. How much better to also have audio that reinforces RTK/RevTK!

10) Listen to *A LOT MORE AUDIO*!!! This is the only way to simulate immersion.

And maybe I should redirect that person to this post for the additional ideas I had.

I stand by my assertion that there wasn’t positive reinforcement. But rather than:

“Oh, you speak Japanese, why bother with learning Kanji anyway”, or “Oh, it’s not really learning Kanji here anyway, just mnemonics and english words”

I was actually looking for geniune encouragement and dealing with the ihatobu’s real problem. You have done very well with your reviews, it’s very impressive. But not everyone else will enjoy the path you’ve taken. The original question was from someone who despite repeated attempts *did not* seem to enjoy that path.

It doesn’t matter how efficient the SRS review is if you hate it - you’ll stop. That’s the problem - but the advice for that actual problem was quite thin.

No one sought to learn more about where ihatobu was coming from. How has he learned in the past? What did he enjoy? What first attracted him to Japanese and how could he leverage that more?

Does he need to find a different rate of study so he doesn’t feel like dropping out for months? Another way to interact with the Kanji to help with recalling them?

What topics does he like to read about that people could recommend books for? Interesting outlets for writing outside of language learning sites? Places where he could read, write and use Kanji even more to help with whatever rate of review he finds works for him.

I respect and applaud all your success with Japanese. But this post and that forum question were not about you or me. It was all about ihatobu.

The responses ihatobu got on the forum indicate we all employ a lot of tool based thinking. But ultimately language is about people. Even if the forum is biased to a particular tool, that doesn’t mean that it’s better to focus on the tools and ignore the people.

Quote:

“Change it up if it’s not working. And for gods’ sakes don’t forget it’s merely a process to achieve language fluency.”

Couldn’t have said it better myself

Instead, your gripe was no positive reinforcement by posters? No: “Oh, you speak Japanese, why bother with learning Kanji anyway”, or “Oh, it’s not really learning Kanji here anyway, just mnemonics and english words”. Suprise, we’re going to say you have to review to retain. (too many posters tell about how they stopped and had to start over) You use the SRS to make the reviewing more efficient.

Then you quote my stat post (which you cut off an important piece) which is 2238 Kanji from RTK1 and RTK3 I’ve put into the RTK srs. As I’ve done 25,000 reviews since June of 2007, that means with RTK (as my other Japanese studies was not part of the discussion), I’m averaging writing a kanji from memory after 4 months of not seeing it by writing a mere 10 times per over the course of a year.

Outside of RTK, I do sentence review via an SRS. So I am writing quite a bit. I’m singing karaoke, so there’s a bit of sight reading. I e-mail letters in Japanese (not exactly writing). I watch tv. I listen to music. The above I can’t quantify (well, outside the SRS sentences).

I quantified the RTK portion cause I warn guys it’s a heavy upfront investment. 250 to 500 hours before you even begin writing Japanese? Pretty steep. In my opinion it was worth it cause it got me to a level I’m at now. On the other hand, I can also say I’ve written X number of sentences, know X number of Onyomi and Kunyomi pronunciation based on vocabulary in my deck. No, it’s not a Turing test. But it allows “me” to see how “I” am progressing in the “study portion” of learning Japanese. Study portion being but a part learning Japanese.

However, I agree with you. If it hurts you’re eventually going to use any excuse to stop. It’s good to be reminded from time to time to keep it fun and fresh. Change it up if it’s not working. And for gods’ sakes don’t forget it’s merely a process to achieve language fluency.

Guess you could say some in the RevTK forums have treated getting 10,000 sentences into an SRS the same way those at TJP forums treat passing the JLPT. Reality checks are a good thing.

I have 螢 from 螢一（けいいち）thoroughly ‘memorized’.

I have this nagging feeling that most of the users of RevTK haven’t really read about some of the things Heisig says in his book.

“Finally, it seems worthwhile to give some brief thought to any ambitions
one might have about “mastering” the Japanese writing system. The idea arises
from, or at least is supported by, a certain bias about learning that comes from
overexposure to schooling: the notion that language is a cluster of skills that
can be rationally divided, systematically learned, and certi³ed by testing. The
kanji, together with the wider structure of Japanese—and indeed of any language
for that matter—resolutely refuse to be mastered in this fashion. The
rational order brought to the kanji in this book is only intended as an AID TO GET YOU CLOSE ENOUGH to the characters to befriend them, let them surprise you,
inspire you, enlighten you, resist you, and seduce you.”(Emphasis mine)

“Many characters, perhaps the majority of them, can be so remembered on
a first encounter, provided sufficient time is taken to fix the image.”
So much for an SRS.

My stance on this: Heisig’s method is cool. But it is by far not the be-all and end-all of learning Japanese. I say this by having finished RTK1 itself.

Heisig also mentions in this in his book:
“There is no need to make a special effort to memorize them.”(regarding primitives)

Guess why that is? Context, context, context: what Khalid has been harping on for the past god-knows-how-many posts

@Katherine - Don’t you see a contradiction? Imaginative memory is all about fixing images in your head so that you NEVER forget them. Or need to review it after say, after a week and then after a month for complete retention. I believe that an SRS will give you much more than that.

Ultimately we should recognize tools for what they are: tools. Their entire purpose is nullified if they give you feelings of guilt and depression for not staying on track. If they help you, use them. If they don’t, chuck them out of the window.

There’s been plenty of people who have become amazingly fluent in Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese, Arabic, whatever, a long time before the invention of the SRS. And there are still plenty of people who do. Their interest does seem to be the most consistent factor, but interest is subjective! So I don’t understand why people insist on ‘lists’ and so on. Go out and find something!

That’s an incredible example of the person who freaked out on their lack of ability to handwrite characters…when I’m writing Chinese essays, if I ever forget how to write a character, I just type it in on my mobile phone, or electronic dictionary, and then I’ve got it. And the same goes for my Chinese friends. I suppose some people would look down upon this (sacrilege?), but
amazingly, an occasional brain-freeze doesn’t affect our ability to listen, read, or construct sentences…

Just some thoughts.

I think if more of language learning leaned towards exploration, questions like these would be easier to answer. Instead we’re left with more of a bias towards study and burnout survival techniques. You still learn but it’s not as fun and many quit.

And I would most emphatically say that I did NOT fall off the wagon. I’m opposing the notion that you HAVE to use flash cards or an SRS or any study technique every day and if you aren’t you’re somehow doing the “wrong” thing.

I’m arguing that if you feed your interest in Japanese through blogs, TV, visiting Japan or whatever, you will find that interacting with Japanese everyday becomes effortless.

I don’t like looking up stuff in dictionaries. I’ve gone through entire weeks just reading blogs and articles full of kanji and vocab I don’t know, but on topics that interested me, without looking up a single word or grammar item. If I didn’t understand, I read what I could and moved on.

Because they were talking about things that interest me, I was willing to read them no matter what.

And I agree that an SRS is a great tool. I’ve built one on the other half of this site and am continuing to evolve it. But I’m trying to get away from the feelings of guilt, frustration and depression (symptoms of burnout) that have always accompanied this type of study for me and others.

When I get the reading or meaning of a word wrong during review, it’s much more fun to run across it by chance 5 times while reading for pleasure, than to study it.

And when I run across it again in review, all the context from the other places I’ve seen it rush back.

So, I don’t doubt that any tool or technique can help you. But I will say this:

If Spanish language TV, newspapers, sports, and the cultures of Spanish speaking countries were really interesting to you, gaining fluency in Spanish would be inevitable. You wouldn’t be able to keep your hands off that stuff. And an SRS would certainly have helped.

But an SRS alone, unless you really enjoy studying, would lead to burnout.

When we all were children, we never fell off the wagon learning our native languages. We played with friends, we watched cartoons, we read books. School helped to polish our skills, but the meat came from life.

We resisted memorizing stuff for school because it was boring, but we never turned down a chance to talk, listen, read or write about what interested us.

And that is where the lion’s share of the repetition and learning occured.

Where there is interest, learning CANNOT be stopped.

You mentioned learning the roman alphabet. This isn’t the same at all, as that is like learning the kana. It’s really, really easy.

Instead, this is a lot closer to learning new words.

I don’t know about you, but when I hear a new English word and learn the definition, I never forget it. People expect the same of kanji, and it doesn’t work like that… At least until you got a LOT of them down pat.

The SRS is not an end. It’s a means to that end. It’s a very quick means to that end, too. It gives you valuable practice on something that would be very hard to obtain otherwise, but that’s only after the initial kick-start.

If SRSs had existed when I was in highschool, I’d be fluent in Spanish now… And would have been for years.

People don’t suggest other things because they aren’t the best method… It’s not because they are blind, or are jerks. Putting in a lot of hard work now really -is- the easier way to get started in Japanese.

As for falling off the wagon… You seem to be able to climb right back up on with no problem. The rest of us aren’t so lucky. If I miss a day of practice, I’m likely to miss more than 1. I finally halted that by setting up times of the day that I practice (before work, at lunch, optionally after work sometime) and sticking to it. I’ve left option time in there for days I’m bored and feel like really working it, but make sure the mandatory time is kept even when I really don’t feel like it.

It feels like a downer, until I get through the mandatory time and then I feel good about my progress for the rest of the day. That makes it much easier to face it in the evening for optional practice, and again the next day for mandatory. Last time I skipped 2 weeks, I was a whole week getting back up to speed. It was very depressing.

But that repetition also comes for free when you read and watch and converse in Japanese.

But whatever you do, if you don’t enjoy it or worse, it burns you out, you’ll eventually stop.

The goal is fluency. Enjoyment and interest are, in my opinion, better predictors of success than using any particular tool or method.